The horror of office parties

[mahogany]

Last night was J*s office Christmas party. Does anyone actually enjoy these? It was awful. I was sitting at a table with people that I don't know. Making small talk (which I hate). And making at laughing at really banal jokes.

The interesting that happened last night was that one of the other wives is five months pregnant, and she blithely ordered a glass of wine. I almost choked on my food. A bunch of thoughts raced through my head including, "It's none of your business. Besides, this could be the one and only glass she's having in her entire pregnancy. Saying something won't help, and besides, it's none of your business. But what about the baby? What if this is a habit?" I was so uncomfortable. I know people that have fetal alcohol syndrome. With all of the information out there, why would she choose to drink? It's kind of like smoking during pregnancy. Why would someone do that, now? This isn't the 1950's when we didn't know better (though, I think in the 50s people did know better, deep down, it just didn't have the social stigma that it has now).



So, today, I have a poll.

[Poll #1653871]

Comments

[toezontheground.livejournal.com]

If I knew the person, I think I'd find it relatively easy to say something about the drinking - it could be done "lightly" ...tougher call if you don't know them, but again, so long as you can keep it light, it's a perverse kinda conversation starter maybe? After all, it is an office party. Buty if you're inwardly seething, it might be hard to keep it light. *shrugs* Smoking I'd be shameless about - after all, second-hand smoke and all, I can complain on my own behalf, let alone the baby's.

[mahogany.livejournal.com]

If I knew the person, and she was having a hard time staying away from alcohol or anything else, I would probably offer to abstain in solidarity with her, so we could suffer together. Or I might get her a massage certificate, or something to make it easier for her. With a stranger, though, it's totally different.

[garpu.livejournal.com]

I thought they were saying that a glass or so a day isn't harmful? I'd be unlikely to mention it because some women wear their fat oddly and I know well what it's like when someone says "Do you really think you should be eating/drinking that?"

[mahogany.livejournal.com]

Yeah, definitely don't want to be saying that to a non-pregnant woman! In this case, I knew she was pregnant because it had been mentioned :-)

The exact amount of alcohol that damages a fetus is unknown. The spectrum is quite wide, and children with fetal alcohol effect are less likely to be diagnosed because they have a normal IQ, and don't have the facial fetus, but they have emotional issues associated with alcohol consumption during the mother's pregnancy. Alcohol has officially been classified as teratogenic to a developing fetus. As far as I'm concerned the jury is still out on this one.

Pregnancy was so emotional for me. The responsibility for growing this child, and knowing how my lifestyle choices good and bad during pregnancy would affect the health of another human being for their entire lives was something that I took really seriously.

So yeah, her one glass, probably not a huge deal, but I was really shocked to see it happening. It's very unusual.

[garpu.livejournal.com]

I'm still unlikely to say anything. Lord knows I know how it feels when someone tells me that I shouldn't have something I'm splurging on.

[mahogany.livejournal.com]

Yeah. I didn't say anything either. Inwardly, I was thinking WTF?!!! and there was a big part me that wanted to ask whether this was a habitual thing, or just a one-off thing, but deep down, I know it's not my business, so I kept mum.

[blaueteufelin.livejournal.com]

Pregnancy was so emotional for me. The responsibility for growing this child, and knowing how my lifestyle choices good and bad during pregnancy would affect the health of another human being for their entire lives was something that I took really seriously.

I wish all pregnant women took that seriously, but at the same time, I think the idea of a woman's responsibility for the health of the fetus can be pushed so far that it turns into another instance of societal and internalized woman-blaming (not saying this was the case for you, but that I've seen people take it to this extreme). Even when we take the best care possible of ourselves during pregnancy, things are still largely out of our control, and things can still go wrong. Women often get blamed for pregnancy loss or birth defects when it isn't at all clear that they did anything to cause them.

[mahogany.livejournal.com]

Even when we take the best care possible of ourselves during pregnancy, things are still largely out of our control, and things can still go wrong. Women often get blamed for pregnancy loss or birth defects when it isn't at all clear that they did anything to cause them.

This is a very real problem. It isn't fair - particularly since most birth defects do not have a clear cause. Even if a particular activity statistically increases the odds of having particular defect, or problem down the line, it's often impossible to find a clear reason, and I think in the cases of deep loss, such as the loss of a child, people are searching for answers. It's not fair to the women, and as you said elsewhere, pregnant women's bodies are not public property.

How then, do we as a society, support and encourage women to make the best possible choices during the nine months (which can seem like an eternity - especially if a woman is having a crappy pregnancy). Education is one component, but I think there's a support component that's lacking. The line between support and pressure is a fine one to walk because very often support feels like pressure, or coercion, but by the same token, pregnancy does require some serious lifestyle changes, and I wonder if more women would find the nine months easier to handle if they didn't feel like they were in it alone?

[blaueteufelin.livejournal.com]

Definitely a tough balance to strike - with the questions of natural childbirth and nursing vs. formula, too. I think the best we can do is provide women with plenty of information, and offer support, and leave the decisions about what to do with that information and available support up to women to make. Not much of an answer I guess :p

[blaueteufelin.livejournal.com]

There's no option for what I would do if I saw a pregnant woman having a glass of wine, which is probably think nothing of it. I drank while I was pregnant :p

There's no evidence that light to moderate drinking increases the risks of FAS. Most of the studies on FAS until very recently only compared women who didn't drink at all during pregnancy to women who were drinking heavily during pregnancy - i.e., five or more drinks a day! More recent studies have shown that light to moderate drinking is not dangerous for pregnant women. In France it's not uncommon for women to drink a glass or two of wine a *day* and their rates of FAS are lower than in the US.

Putting on my historian of medicine hat - the drinking during pregnancy question is a great example of how contingent medical "facts" and "truth" can be on cultural and national context. In the US women are told to completely avoid soft cheeses and wine during pregnancy. French doctors have no problem with pregnant women eating soft cheeses and drinking wine (some even strongly recommend the latter), while warning women off from avoid raw salad greens and vegetables because of the risk of food poisoning. These things aren't always as clear cut as medical professionals like the public to think.

For me, I weighed the available information and decided to avoid alcohol in the first trimester, since that seemed to be a pretty universal recommendation, and to drink occasionally after that. Before I got pregnant I had 1-2 drinks a week at the most; I cut that back to 1-2 drinks a month. I continued to eat soft cheeses and raw fish because the actual risks of getting listeria - especially from sources that I'd already eaten from without any food poisoning - were infinitesimal. I avoided fish with high mercury content and only had a small amount of tuna sushi once every 3 weeks to a month. Weighing the data, these seemed like reasonable ways to safely continue enjoying things I liked.

[blaueteufelin.livejournal.com]

Oh, and I don't think people in the '50s did know better about drinking during pregnancy. Before the link between alcohol and birth defects was demonstrated, hospitals used to give pregnancy women alcohol intravenously to stop early labor!

[mahogany.livejournal.com]

I wasn't clear on this one. I was actually referring to cigarettes. But the way my MIL tells it, she was advised to keep smoking through pregnancy so her babies wouldn't be too big (she's a small framed woman). Did she really get this advice, or is she making excuses for the health problems her smoking caused her kids? It's hard to say. It wouldn't be the first time that someone has received piss poor advice from their doctor, so I'll give her the benefit of the doubt. But I still maintain that anyone that has ever smoked (speaking as a reformed smoker, here), must know on some level that it can't be good. Everything about it screams, "really bad for you," even if there isn't any official stance, or official linkage - people still knew. Somewhere, somehow, on some level, they knew.

[season-changing.livejournal.com]

She was probably telling the truth! Back in that day and age, women were encouraged to smoke because they knew it produced smaller babies. I've actually read this in many older textbooks and it's even mentioned in several midwifery texts!

[blaueteufelin.livejournal.com]

I see. Can't speak to the smoking question since I've never done it myself. If someone I knew were smoking during pregnancy I'd probably say something, but I don't think it would be right to do that with a stranger. There's enough of people thinking pregnant women's bodies are public property as is.

[mahogany.livejournal.com]

I love soft cheese, and a few months before I was pregnant with Oscar, we had a massive recall on Brie due to listeria, so the spectre of listeria loomed pretty large in my mind during my pregnancy. I think I overcompensated for my abstinence when he was born. I seem to recall going through several large chunks of soft cheese within a week or two of his birth.

The "official" recommendations that are given here in BC re alcohol consumption here is to avoid alcohol consumption completely. I think most physicians will acknowledge that one or two drinks might not harm a developing fetus, but are reluctant to give the green light because the point at which alcohol consumption starts to affect a developing is still unknown, and seems to be based on a number of factors.

I consume alcohol so rarely that it wasn't a big deal for me to err on the side of caution, and just avoid it altogether during pregnancy. Soft cheese, on the other hand was much harder to give up.

[blaueteufelin.livejournal.com]

few months before I was pregnant with Oscar, we had a massive recall on Brie due to listeria, so the spectre of listeria loomed pretty large in my mind during my pregnancy.

I'd avoid soft cheeses under those circumstances, too! I never ate that much soft cheese - or cheese at all - to begin with, so I didn't really have to do that much avoiding.

[marphilly.livejournal.com]

I get a kick out of office parties. Free food and booze! I actually probably wouldn't say anything about a pregnant women drinking, although maybe I should. I don't know enough about FAS. I would be more likely to say something about smoking being unhealthy for the baby - and everyone else around.

[schneckerock.livejournal.com]

I didn't answer teh first because I've never been to an office party. I kind of wish chris's work would have some spouses invited event jsut so I have an excuse to dress up now and agian....

[daysprings.livejournal.com]

I wouldn't fault a pregnant woman for having one not too large glass of wine. The occasional glass of wine during pregnancy isn't going to hurt the baby. But I sort of feel that smoking is gross enough even without the awful prenatal consequences, so there, I'd judge. (my birthmother smoked and it's probably why I was born dangerously preterm.)

[mahogany.livejournal.com]

Smoking is totally gross. It makes my head explode that I was ever dumb enough to do it. Teenagers are truly ridiculous creatures.

[season-changing.livejournal.com]

You know, there are plenty of ob's and midwives alike that will tell you flat out that ONE glass of wine *every day* is fine. Just thought I'd point that out.

The trouble is that most, if not all, of the studies on drinking in pregnancy have been done with heavy drinkers. That is why they don't know what the "safe" limit is because the people being studied weren't drinking small amounts, they were binge drinking all of the time. Many of the studies include women who were alcoholics and smokers to boot.

It's good to be concerned about drinking in pregnancy but the truth is that a small amount even on a weekly basis isn't going to hurt the baby.

[mahogany.livejournal.com]

Someone once gave me a smoking analogy, and I think it probably applies here too. He said, "Picture yourself blindfolded in an empty room, with a pistol, an unlimited amount bullets, and an egg. Each cigarette that you smoking, is like firing off one round. If the round you fire breaks the egg, BANG! you get cancer. Some people can fire hundreds of thousands of rounds without ever breaking the egg. Some fire off fewer. Heavy smokers that have smoked for decades, are at a much greater risk of getting cancer. There will be the odd person that lives to an old age, and dies peacefully in their sleep after having smoked their entire lives, but those people are in the minority. The vast majority will have cracked the egg.

I think drinking alcohol during pregnancy is much the same. There is definitely a link, between alcohol consumption and fetal alcohol spectrum disorders, but the actual tipping point varies based on a number of factors, and each drink might be like ten shots in that room. Someone could drink three drinks a week for their entire pregnancy, and sill have only fired off 1200 rounds. That's really not much, and not likely to break the egg - but it is still possible. e truth is that a small amount even on a weekly basis isn't going to hurt the baby. I think a more accurate statement would be: "A small amount even on a weekly basis is unlikely to hurt the baby in a quantifiable way."

[jessicaem.livejournal.com]

I said "great fun" because I've always been to fun office parties, but I think my experience is the exception.

And I said "pass judgment" and "say nothing even though you're dying to say something" because I would do both of those things. Well... I probably wouldn't pass as much judgment on the glass of wine as I would on the smoking.

[mahogany.livejournal.com]

Yeah, the general consensus seems to be that the smoking is a bigger "no no". I wonder if perhaps that's because smoking is almost always habitual, whereas as a glass of wine could be a very occasional thing.